Id like to throw my little hat (french beret or fedora...havent decided which yet) into the ring here.

Some nice arguments for both sides. I agree that both puppet effects and cgi have their merits.

I think the problem with cgi in movies these days isnt that its not better or worse than puppets and clever camera work..i think the actual problem is hollywood relying too heavily on effects and forgetting basic things like story, acting, direction etc. The best cgi in the world can fall flat if the story is bad.

And now my little soap box rant which also illustrates my point.

Im a massive superman fan...the orginal 1978 film is the best imo (now ask me how many directors cut/bluray/extended variations I have hehe).

Now to me, here is a great movie. The script was good, the actors were good (they cast for Clark Kent not superman...which in my theory makes for a good superman film because typically we see more of clark kent than superman so if the actor isnt that good at clark...forget a believable superman...BUT i digress sorry!) , the music was good and the effects were good. They didnt use cgi, they used plain old fashioned camera angles and clever wires to get the results. Old school cgi you might say. 

Now compare this film to the Brandon Routh acted epic, Superman returns. What went wrong here?  Bad acting, bad story, bad plot...mmm maybe. Was it the cgi? maybe that too...anyone else think that Superman looks like one of the movie-tie-in dolls when he flies into the sun at the end and we see his face in the light? but hey that aeroplane scene wasnt so bad was it? (anyone else cheer at the cinema when they saw supes in the doorway of the plane? i know my cinema did )

I dont think the cgi was the defining factor in the failure of superman returns but it was a part of it...I think the main failure is simple and what Ive already suggested at above.

Watch the original 1978 superman on bluray in a super hd back lit led tv. Now do the same thing with superman returns.

Supes returns falls flat by comparison and I think this is due to the fact that the original superman film is timeless. It was original (yes its based off a comic) but the film itself is held as a template for how to make a super hero movie. I can watch this movie over and over..but my Supes returns dvd sits in the corner and sucks its thumb in despair wondering why the writers didnt give it better plots, why the actors didn't understand what classic characters they were portraying, and why...oh why....in some scenes...supes looks like a plastic doll.

Anyway, im taking my hat back out of the ring and Im off to watch Labyrinth....probably followed by Avatar  

Chantika:

(anyone else cheer at the cinema when they saw supes in the doorway of the plane? i know my cinema did )

No, but I did get excited tingles down the spine when the John Williams Superman theme started playing at the start. I think Routh himself did a very respectable job in the role. He was in the unfortunate position of replacing one of the most perfectly cast actors for the role though, and wasn't really allowed to make the part his own. I like the film despite it's faults, but no, it isn't in the same league as the original (I don't believe any of that is down to visual effects though).

banjaxedmdt:

Chantika:

(anyone else cheer at the cinema when they saw supes in the doorway of the plane? i know my cinema did )

No, but I did get excited tingles down the spine when the John Williams Superman theme started playing at the start. I think Routh himself did a very respectable job in the role. He was in the unfortunate position of replacing one of the most perfectly cast actors for the role though, and wasn't really allowed to make the part his own. I like the film despite it's faults, but no, it isn't in the same league as the original (I don't believe any of that is down to visual effects though).

something about that opening fanfare...tingles..YES......mmm...shiver up the spine.......

I bought the special collectors box set of the soundtracks from the original 4 films plus bonus discs....the best music on earth imo especially "The planet Krypton"

One of the many great, and hugely important, things about Richard Donner's Superman is the relationship between Superman/Clark and Lois.

While Brandon Routh did a good job in being deliberately Reeve-esque (given the semi-sequel nature of Superman Returns, Kate Bosworth was horribly miscast as Lois, and her performance completely missed the fiesty/goofy quality that Margot Kidder brought to the role.

It's particulary sad when there is an actress who is about as close as you could get to Margot Kidder without actually being Margot Kidder - The Mentalist's Robin Tunney:

em...:

One of the many great, and hugely important, things about Richard Donner's Superman is the relationship between Superman/Clark and Lois.

While Brandon Routh did a good job in being deliberately Reeve-esque (given the semi-sequel nature of Superman Returns, Kate Bosworth was horribly miscast as Lois, and her performance completely missed the fiesty/goofy quality that Margot Kidder brought to the role.

I was going to mention the same thing in my post above. It's very telling when you watch the extras on the DVDs for the 2 films. With Donner's film they invested huge time and effort casting Reeve, then spent as much time finding a Lois that worked with him (if you see the screentests they show, it was a no-brainer casting Kidder). With Singer's film, they also spent a huge amount of time in casting the lead, but when it came to Lois it was basically a 2 minute meeting where the discussion goes something like "what do you think of Bosworth?" "Yeah, she'll do." "Ok, that's sorted then".

A lot of people miss the point of the character. Lois isn't a catwalk model, and doesn't have to look like one. Clark/Superman is attracted to her personality, her honesty and her tenaciousness when it comes to getting to the truth (even though it lands her in trouble frequently). Even though she has a tougher exterior, in a lot of ways Lois is as nerdy, unaware and innocent as Clark pretends to be, which is why they are so perfectly matched, and Margot Kidder's portrayal nailed that better than anyone before or since.

Also, nothing can top their first meeting in Superman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCLi3_-iXHk. It's so perfect because it's both dramatically epic yet personal at the same time, and it encompasses almost everything that symbolizes Superman: Heroism, flight, strength, romance. Which is probably why it's been replicated in two "official" origin retellings that DC published - Birthright and Secret Origin. The plane rescue from Superman Returns (and the animated series first episode) has some similarities, but lacks the personal element. It's so much stronger when Lois ends up in his arms.

Yian:

Kate Bosworth was a block of wood. She ruined the whole movie!

I guess Joe was right. Actors getting emotional with a puppet didn't work on this occasion. 

Domtopia:

Hence this thread. I, for one, would love to see so much more physical, real and present puppets and models and proportionally less CGI in movies. It is so obvious when CGI is used and although it often looks great (no arguments from me there) it simply lacks the weight and tactility of having something physically infront of the actors for them to interact with, as well as having the subtle and often missing effects of ambient and reflected lighting that places an object in an environmet. CGI creators are only human and cannot cover all the bases!

The directors and effects technicians back in the day used animatronics, puppets and stop motion because these methods were the most technically innovative means of getting their ideas up on the screen, these older methods are advanced to the point where they can go no further while CGI has still a long way to go.

The older methods are still relevant, Guillermo de Toro mixes it all up with CGI and it always looks great. 

em...:

While Brandon Routh did a good job in being deliberately Reeve-esque (given the semi-sequel nature of Superman Returns, Kate Bosworth was horribly miscast as Lois, and her performance completely missed the fiesty/goofy quality that Margot Kidder brought to the role.

I thought Brandon Routh was awful, zombie Clark Kent, Kevin Spacey doing his Dr Evil Impression wasn't that great either.

That whole film though, one half decent action set piece, lots of boredom and lens flare, why lens flare? 

Conscious Bob:

why lens flare? 

Ask J.J. Abrams, he used so many of them in Star Trek that you couldn't see what was going on in several scenes. I think he actually caused a major lens flare shortage in Hollywood that year, which delayed Michael Bay from making a Transformers film (but not a long enough delay sadly). 

I'm glad this has sparked a decent debate.

What can be said about the merits of Real Sets vs. Greenscreen CGI backgrounds?

P.S. For the record, I would like to see a balance between the two, models/puppets and CGI. Not one method over another!

.

I think you can do very well with having a mixture but honestly if you're going to hire crap actors or get bad directors then just go full CGI or use no CGI at all :(

Agreed Lethn. I thought Superman Returns was a decent enough film in itself, inasmuch as it was a tribute to Christopher Reeves (who will always be supreman), which I was fine with. I was very much disapointed by the less-than-convincing CGI versions of Brandon Routh in various scenes. It is this sort of thing that prompted me to start this thread. CGI simply can't capture the full range of possibilties and even imperfections of reality, no matter how sophisticated the software or the abilities af the artists involved. 

The best results are usually when aliens or machines are computer generated. Animals and humans are much harder because they never seem to have the correct gravity and weight (or rarely, at any rate).

It's the balance that needs to be struck which is the thing that needs sorting.

em...:

It's particulary sad when there is an actress who is about as close as you could get to Margot Kidder without actually being Margot Kidder - The Mentalist's Robin Tunney:

She would make an excellent Lois Lane!

Domtopia:

CGI simply can't capture the full range of possibilties and even imperfections of reality, no matter how sophisticated the software or the abilities af the artists involved.

In fairness that's a slightly different point you're making.

CGI is not yet good enough to replace live action actors but that was never a possibility with traditional special effects techniques either.

Watch Total Recall or the first Terminator movie and you can always spot the rubber Arnies.