kazky:

... to point out others flaws at a time when nothing can be done still annoys me...

It can be annoying, sure. But there's value in explaining why you think one piece is better than another at vote time. The vote is when we compare the merits and faults of all the pieces at once: it is the reason we have a vote -- to compare. Not allowing people to share their opinions is asking voters to cast an uninformed vote. So what if someone points out something I didn't notice? If it's there, so be it. If reading someone else's critique compels me to vote differently than I might have, then clearly I -- the voter -- have learned something new and expanded my perceptions, and that's a good thing.

To forestall that understanding could also be frustrating and artificial. So imagine the situation in reverse, and how annoying it'd be if you voted, then read a critique afterwards which would have altered your vote, perhaps changing the entire outcome. It cuts both ways.

Asking people not to comment on the final is withholding/delaying understanding, whereas allowing crits at any time challenges the work to stand up on it's own merits against a range of opinions.

.. I just like to get feedback / crits, I use the WIP forum often to improve my pics, and i agree that i would also like to know if the green Llama in my final could better be an orange one because it looks much better.

I think you can say anything as feedback or crit as long as you stay respectful to the artist and his/ her work, it's the basic rule of giving feedback. It's up to the artist to choose to improve the artwork with the crits or leave the piece in the the final state posted on the forum.

Maybe we should not only vote a top three to decide a winner but make a list of all the entries and add a comment/ feedback/ crit. ( no worries kaz the points are only distributed to the frist three, you don't have to count endlessly to decide who the winner is) in this way everybody gets a chance to get a place in the contest and gets additional comments from the voter ( it would work for me, I would also be satisfied knowing i was number four or five! ( perhaps not if there are only five entries..))

Smolin:

kazky:

... to point out others flaws at a time when nothing can be done still annoys me...

whereas allowing crits at any time challenges the work to stand up on it's own merits against a range of opinions.

Actually this part is fair enough but to have a full range of opinion every one would have to express their views on all pieces.

Harlequin:

Smolin doesn't your argument assume every ones opinion is informed and correct?

Not really, it just assumes that everyone ought to have an opportunity to be heard. Whether the opinion is worthwhile is a judgement call.

As for critting every piece, that'd be a perfect situation, but not always possible. But I can still take away interesting insights from the pieces that do get crits and apply them to my own work later.

Great discussion topic! 

To my mind, opinion and critique are two very seperate things.

The critique's that we get through the wip process are usually subjective and aren't affected by the voting process. You aren't thinking about ranking them or which one's the best, you're looking at each on it's merits and pointing out those things that are or aren't working. I don't think anyone's disputing what an essential part of the challenges this is.

As for the voting process, this seems to be more about opinion and taste as we're judging 'final' works. I must admit I like the comments as it does give you an idea as to why someone did or did not like your work, but when I compare the finals I would vote for against what other people vote for I think they're all mad!! And, of course you would do, because you've chosen your top three and in your mind that's the best three images. 

So, it seems alien to me that any one person's comments could change someone's opinion. Art is a visual medium and everyone from the layman on the street to the top artists working today can give you an instant like or dislike opinion purely based on something you show them. I guess, for me, the comments on votes are nice but not essential and they are generally not as useful or insightful as the ones you get in the WIP thread.

In my humble opinion, there is more growth in an artist who figures out for himself what he likes and dislikes, than one who is easily influenced.

Time for my two cents. 

I have to say as one just trying to learn digital art when I joined eight months ago I have found the critiques that I have received on my final pieces as helpful if not more helpful than those that I receive on my WIPs. Usually WIP comments are encouraging and give less insight into what is needed, such as “good idea, can’t wait to see final work”.  IT was comments that I received on the finals that gave more insight, such as on the Alien Storm where it was pointed out that some of the lightning strikes led the eye out of the picture. This may not have been picked up in the WIPs because the strikes were not completed at that time. Another was my pin-up, where I cropped the final and EM pointed out that he liked it but that pin-ups of the time were full figure, a point that I hadn’t considered.  Where, I wouldn’t have won either challenges, these final critiques were that most helpful.  To me there is nothing more discouraging then to see votes 1,2 and 3 and not seeing any feedback on your work at all and left to wonder why someone thought they were the best. You’re left with, ”OK but what did I need to do”.

One thing I see is that more people enter the final vote then put comments on the WIPs. This is good, but since they weren’t giving comments during the development of your work it would be nice to know what they think of your final and what might have improved it.

One final observation as the challenge gets closer to the end there are usually fewer comments posted on the WIPs page probably as people run out of time themselves to get their own work done.  This means that as you’re getting closer to the final result you get less feedback where it could be the most use.

KAZKY: Perhaps a solution would be when you close the voting, put a stop point on the WIP page with a link and then ask for only the top three votes in the Finals page and supply a link to that link on end of the WIP page, where you encourage critiques and comments on all entries. Then you could post your personal vote but comments could still be made about all finals. Note it would be helpful if that link would also open it as a separate web page or tab so you could easily go back and forth to the posted finals and look at each while commenting on them.

Anyway this is more than two cents,  and finally I would say Llamas are fine but I would like to see more jackalopes.   

Just found this thread and thought I'd chime in anyway.

I'm torn on the issue.  Personally, I do tend to critique in the finals thread--not always, but sometimes.  

Critiques are always more helpful when you can do something about them, so  they are more helpful in the WIP thread. However, I also like to see how a voter went about deciding on his/her choices by providing comparative critiques for all pieces since it may provide an insight as to what you could have done better in comparison to others. In some cases--critiques clearly demonstrate that a particular voter cast his/her vote because he/she likes certain colors or puppies.  In those latter cases, the critiques are not as useful and as a participant in the contest you just have to shrug and move on.  You would hope the majority of the voting population is actually looking at a balance of elements before voting (how well the art fits the challenge theme, the execution--composition, colors, skill etc.), but that's not always going to happen. 

Critiques in the finals thread sometimes shed a certain amount of useful light on the voting process.